a random bit of editing dialogue

[julesjones]

Excerpt from my comments on the latest version of edits on Bargain:

"Were I English I would bitch about this, because many, many of the English believe that 'gotten' does not exist in any British dialect. Since I am Northern Irish, I am glad you corrected something I did out of years of habit formed from writing English characters..."

Comments

[kalypso]

The Irish use it? I've heard a couple of people doing it recently, and couldn't work out why - don't think they were Irish.

[julesjones]

It's one of those things that became unfashionable in parts of England way back when, and then fell out of use because it was seen as vulgar (in the "common" rather than the "obscene" sense), while being retained in American usage. And has since been seen as some horrible American neologism, even when used in a British dialect that retains it. It's still fairly common in Scots and Irish usage. It also seems to be retained in some patches of England, although it will be seen as an Americanism (or occasionally as very heavy and "common" dialect). Chambers lists it as "archaic, Scottish and American", and anything listed like that in Chambers will usually be in Ulster English and often Southern Irish English.

[kalypso]

Yes, but I also remember coming across an American belief that the English really used "gotten" and just pretended we didn't out of snobbery. Somebody proudly pointed to Avon saying "gotten" in a Blake's Seven transcript, until we pointed out that the episode had been transcribed by American fans who had naturally heard what they expected to hear; replaying the scene didn't reveal an extra syllable.

I'm definitely beginning to hear it around the place now, and think it's still more likely to be returning from America than re-emerging from current dialects.

[julesjones]

That particular conversation also included the Scottish and Irish contingent making pointed remarks about "The *English* may not use it but that doesn't mean that the British don't." Although we also went on to say that this still did not justify the Americans trying to force it on English characters who did not in fact use it on screen. :-)

(And indeed, I would get rather irritated if a character I had deliberately written as using "got" was Americanised.)

[watervole]

I use 'gotten' as a conscious choice. I feel it fills a gap in English. I only wish the Americans would do likewise and use 'fitted'.

[kalypso]

I don't actually know when to use it. I used to think I did - it looked straightforward enough - but green_maia said I'd misunderstood the nuances, so now I'm baffled. If I had to write American characters, I would ask an American to read it through and tell me what needed changing.